why we search meaning in our actions

Comment by Rahul Dewanjee on March 21, 2010 at 1:47am

can we frog-leap this pyramid: can we jump one step....is that possible?

Comment by Turil Cronburg on March 21, 2010 at 11:46am

Hi Rahul. I happened to see your picture, and wanted to let you know that I'm continuing Maslow's research, and updating his theory to include modern information on development and growth from all areas of science. I've recently taken a turn in my work, and I don't have any current information up on the web, but I'm working on putting something together to offer people. But the basic theory is that we go through alternating stages of input and output at ever increasing levels of complexity. So Maslow's bottom level there is the input stage at the physical level, where a fetus has to be given everything or it doesn't grow physically. Maslow's second level is the output stage on the physical level, where a newborn baby starts to learn how to express itself physically (moving, peeing, pooping, crying, laughing, etc.). And then we move into the input stage again, but at a higher level of intimate relationships with others, where we need to know that we belong and are valued by someone else close to us. And the growth keeps happening, with a very predictable pattern, just like breathing: alternating in and then out, while also progressing. (And just like breathing, you really don't skip steps, at least not if you want to stay healthy. :-)

Anyway, I'm glad you're looking at the patterns of life. It's so useful to have a guide for how to help the world grow healthfully, isn't it?

Comment by Jan Lampe on March 21, 2010 at 12:27pm

well, this is actually a more refined version of maslows pyramid, i believe the original is a bit simpler, but you can not really skip steps, i agree with turil on that one.

i believe that in the developed world, the first two steps are basically given to 95% of the population, without having to achieve anything - i have a roof over my head, i have food, i have some sort of social network, i am not afraid i might get robbed on my way to the bank...

and with that, problems arise - people are less in touch with their base, so to speak.

but if you look at esteem and self actualisation, this is exactly what EVOKE is about - and its something you cant achieve while starving, really.

Comment by Turil Cronburg on March 21, 2010 at 1:11pm

Jan, it might seen that most people have their bottom level needs met in the developed world, but when you look more closely, you might see that the Devil is in the details. Most of the food, water, and air we get is polluted, and for many it's definitely not given unconditionally. Most folks are beholden to a job that causes them stress just to get good and shelter and clothes. And most people don't feel very safe, especially with the government and media promoting a culture of fear (terrorism and disease are the major topics of the news these days). So on the surface people might look wealthy, they are usually quite deficient in the basic needs when you look a little deeper.

Comment by Jan Lampe on March 22, 2010 at 3:03pm

turil, youre from the states, right?

from a european point of view, the social net that catches those out of a job is knit a lot tighter here - unemployment benefits etc reach a lot further.

imho, all of what you say holds true, just only to some extend.

the pollution only plays a very small part in life, because it affects our health so slowly humans tend to not notice or only notice when it is too late.

and you said it yourself: people do not feel very safe, but the fear is artificially created - i do not think there is an outside threat to any your, mine or rahuls life. what fox news or those like it say... well, lets just say no one i know feels directly threatened at all by the possibility of a terrorist attack - its like swimming and being afraid of a shark that may or may not be there, while drowning is a lot more likely.

im just saying that starving to death in the developed world is rather hard, unless someone is starving you or you are intentionally doing it to yourself. standing in line at a soup kitchen might be embarassing - but that is higher up the pyramid.

i still stick to the point that basic needs are taken care of for most people in the developed world, whether they might be taken care of better, or whether we are happy with what we have or not - that just creates the friction i mentioned.

but you have obviously studied this a lot more than i have, so, please, enlighten me.

Comment by Felix Albus on March 22, 2010 at 3:14pm

We should be given the possibility to open and join groups here on evoke, this topic alone seems to carry a lot further. Good points fellas, I personally didn't hear about Maslow before...

Let me just try and sum it up: It depends on who you are and where you live how many stages there are in your individual pyramid.

For example: If you had to fight for food and survival each day, you wouldn't try and achieve or satisfy some moral principals or ideas.

Comment by Lynn Caldwell on March 22, 2010 at 3:48pm

Nice discussion! :o)

My view is there's no logical steps, I think key drivers are activated in key situations. For example, if I was suddenly single, my children had grown up and moved on my driver would be love and belonging. I'd still feel creative, and have the top one, but I'd definately have a deficit in the love and belonging column....interesting thing though - speaking about why we do what we do.

I'd like to think my creativity would be the key to my freedom if I found myself at the orange level - which people can if they are ill, or have had a recent important berevement. If one of my parents, my husband or god forbid, one of my children, passed away - I couldn't really see myself getting past the orange level, and I could see that I'd lose my apetite and not want to care for myself, so the orange section wouldn't even be working in that situation.

thanks for posting this, Rahul. It's important to have some context and view situations through different lenses

- Nassim Taleb also thinks a bit like Maslow - he says don't judge people when they are living their everyday life, you will gain nothing - how can you judge a murderer when he's doing his dishes - he needs to be in a fretful situation and only then can be judged on the action he takes.

Nassim also states that it's only in retrospect that we think we understand why we do things - most of the stuff we do is just random, and only later we assign meaning and causal explanations for it...all the big things in your life have been spare of the moment - think about it for a second - we are always saying 'if it wasn't for factors XY and Z I'd have never done AB and C. However, if we doc**ented how we came to GET to ABC we'd realise that XY and Z were unplanned.

Actually Rahul, I'll share something with you - a bit off-topic, but hey! Right, I used to be unable to leave the house or interact with anyone because I was convinced that their interaction with me would cause somethig really nice, nothing, or something really horrible. The thought that I'd inadvertantly make someone pause, and then later that day they may have got run over - and people might later think - if she'd been five seconds faster, she'd have lived....ahhh.....it used to do my head in - I'm thankfuly over that now, but I wanted to use that as an example of how are fate is random rather than planned. (Even though I do belive in Karma etc...I'm so contrary! whoops! LOL)

Comment by Turil Cronburg on March 22, 2010 at 4:23pm

Jan, I understand that some people's problems might seem less important to you, but in my experience, if you don't pay attention to even the "small" toxicities and deficiencies they end up snowballing, and turning into huge avalanches like terrorism, racism, addictive consumerism, apathy, and so on. The constant stress of not having healthy options, and of having to constantly defend oneself and one's world from threats on all levels, even if they are "just" the onslaught of negative media and manipulative advertisements, is a powerful and dangerous thing. To dismiss this global social problem is what the government and corporations want us to do, so that they can continue to manipulate us into being complacent. Yes, there are many individuals who don't have any water at all, but that is just as harmful as having water laced with industrial pollutants and corporate drugs, because both problems cause suffering for individuals and for the world as a wh***. Both problems need to be solved, because as Maslow discovered everyone needs a healthy body to be able to be able to move into the transcendent needs where they can successfully care for others as they feel like an integral part of a wh***, living system.

Comment by Turil Cronburg on March 23, 2010 at 1:05am

Michelle, Maslow's hierarchy is very much related to other developmental theories, including Ken Wilber's Integral theory, which uses the Chakras to describe the levels. You might be interested in looking at his work, though it's a big over-complicated, and the folks who tend to follow his work the closest tend to be a bit cultish. But his theory is very sound, and based on good research. You can see the needs at different levels of Wilber's development, and the colors he associates with them, here.

And the solution to helping people move up the developmental levels is right there at the bottom of the needs, nutritious food, clean water, fresh air, warmth, light, and the freedom to express themselves. That IS love. :-) And that's what everyone needs to be able to grow healthfully, mentally and physically. Given those basics, everyone naturally becomes more positive and capable and motivated to be creative in all sorts of ways.

Comment by Rahul Dewanjee on March 23, 2010 at 1:47am

I am glad to hear Lynn say: I'd like to think my creativity would be the key to my freedom

I am so glad to see that this discussion proceeding in the direction where we can build upon each others conversations to endorse our central need to liberate ourselves at each stage of Maslow's pyramid. I reckon our realization that we are free is needed for us to grow and see beyond our subjective truths and create our own paradigm.

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