"I love that you've brought this to attention. An extensive database of uncommon but resistant and hardy plants/foods could be developed and organized by climate. Ease of growth and processing should also be taken in to account. I will try to…"
A crash course in changing the world.
Money is such an outdated concept! Much like countries.
In this century, Money or more specifically 'Debt' is a major problem. Most this I refer to as issues, but money really is a problem no matter what way you look at it.
Many will argue money isn't evil and that it's people that misuse it or are corrupted by it. This sadly isn't so. The system we exist in is the problem, for as long as currency dominates our thought patterns we have an attachment. This creates an imprisonment psychologically and arguable spiritually. Can this problem be solved and how can we know for sure if currency is really out dated?
Firstly, let us look at the banking system and I'm going to pass this onto the Zeitgeist movement for the award winning doc**entary worth watching a few times in order to understand exactly how the system operates.
Upon understanding how currency is a problem, lets not look at how the human body functions. The human organism is a perpetual bio-chemical and bio-mechanical organism that exist on(in) multiple dimensions. So how does this complex being work? This being doesn't have currency . . . or does it? Actually the human body has something called ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) which upon this bond being broken into ADP (Adenosine Diphosphate + Phosphate) creates energy. This the closest thing to a currency within the body. Why is the important to note as 'closest'? Well the human body has been so well designed that (Ignoring pathologies) most activities occur through it's brilliant design. For an example in order to help filter excess salt and water in the kidneys the body can increase the amount of salt excreted, water naturally wants to dilute (Osmosis) within the body and so follows the salt, this action doesn't actually take and energy (ATP) it is a secondary effect. In fact the Sodium-Potassium Pump is major use of ATP, but this one action actually causes a knock on of hundreds of other actions that don't require energy - all through design!*
It gets even better when one looks at how energy is made in the body as it is almost sustainable indefinitely with the correct inputs. Which in itself are also sustainable e.g. Farming creates food for use to eat, combined with clean water allows use to maintain the farm, also the farming itself is a form of exercise keeping the body healthy thus we can ascertain the cycle we mimic in life is a copy of what happens in our body [Yes we should farm more ^_^]
Why is this all worth mentioning, well my hero Jacque Fresco has actually done this and combine his engineering knowledge to enhance humanity but deigning a new system that surpa**** currency. Based a lot on the human body! By designing out the problems one can actively improve efficiency. A lot of people don't know that Nikola Tesla was so successful because all he kept doing was improving everything, each step on the way. The Venus Project goes that one giant leap into the future - those sci-fi fans of star trek will be impressed as it goes even further than the system they had as your see when you start the fun discovery of this incredible system.
HAPPY READING
*Please note this is a heavily simplified version I'd recommend your own research into the human body sincerely it is fascinating and brilliant.
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Comment by Benjamin Michael Jones on April 25, 2010 at 10:31pm
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Quote: “Now on to your concerns as TVP become a cult or religion. This concern has arisen when studying it and yes you are indeed correct that psychologically speaking those of faith type groups are more likely to accept it. However the entire project was create by a very qualified social engineer, someone who despises religion and is very logical two important links for you to check out[…]”
Ok, so he’s a well-educated Elmer Gantry. Because he’s educated, I’m supposed to ignore that the ideas of TVP are largely faith-based?
The Third Reich and Hitler was a faith based movement with a leader probably far less intelligent and perhaps a wh*** less moral (although some sources today suggest Hitler may have been duped into the situation which wouldn't surprise me as the are strong inconsistencies with history - however for the moment were sticking to standard history books) Faith moment is not a fair term as are a number of different member some of which are well educated too, it' not blind faith because they can and do question him regularly much as I would encourage you to do as if you can find something he can't answer i would love to know. It is a leap of faith to allow the concept into ones heart, but seeing as it has never been tried I would say that much like most of like, regardless of whether you call it faith or gut at the end of the day humans have always lived without knowing the answers - that is life.
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Quote: “The idea of robotic slavery is a interesting issues, but robotics as an industry is improving massively as is software, however it is also used today quite effectively and is ironically the result of a lot of redundancies world wide, so it is inevitable jobs that can be done by a computer or machine more effectively and efficiently will occur at some point. To still have a human doing them seems not only a waste of potential, but also fruitless because even rational minded businessmen will want to make as much saving as possible, humans are expensive, robots are cheap with a higher work output. The difference is TVP simply wants to embrace this change free people to go and retrain in these fields for example to progress them on more rapidly. Imagine if the population of China wasn't manufacturing basic clothing for example, but had machines to do it with minimal supervision the population could be re-tasked into Medical care, but oh no now we would have an excess of doctors . . . perhaps they could go to another part of the planet to help out where they have very few and haven't got the technology or don't have manufacturing to switch over from and help them instead?”
Not arguing with the idea that mechanized industry can replace human labour. What I would argue though, is that the cost/benefit ratio of mechanized industry is not superior to human labour. If it were the case, then that process would take place regardless of TVP. Again though, mechanized industry as a form of technology is going to have limits, as mentioned previously (e.g. high R&D, declining marginal product, dependent on existing surpluses of capital resources, etc.).
Coming back to this repeat argument you mention on high R&D i presume your referring to resources as i have mentioned repeatedly skills, (Including time to train), and resources are prioritised on a day to day basis constantly updated. So this infamous capital resources would probably never come about it would simply be re-tasked into other areas that required it. It's not like we wait to have funding then do the research - no the need is identified and constant progression in that field takes place, if more of society wishes to enhance the area by retraining then so be it - it would be optional.
The idea of the machine is a sequential one, initially not all fields could be replaced, but a majority could and then as we gradually master our current robotics more would become available through gradual understanding or perhaps the role would become obsolete and not longer be needed. This would be a gradual process but nonetheless a logical one.
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Comment by Ethan Walden on April 25, 2010 at 10:47pm
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Now, this is what I came to evoke for, Epic Conversations
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Quote: “Hence why I sincerely believe TVP has been well thought out from an engineering POV as it is very thorough especially when you try and imagine the problems you have today and their course, then try and apply the same problem in the RBE. To date i've not had one I could not visualise a solution - if you have one thought please test me I need to know if this vision is worth pursuing or if it's worth just chucking in the towel and becoming another one in the rat race.”
If I had to give you one problem, it would be declining marginal product. Again, I’d refer you to my expose on that topic.
In reference to this I shall go through the link and post my replies on there if I may instead.
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Quote: “In reference to your points on Goods/Service I can empathise with you thought as I too thought this. I was actually well this society sounds boring there would be nothing to do and this would make life boring. However, the system we exist in is what perpetuates this cyclical consumption and mind set. If you had all your needs met to live, would you sit around and do nothing with your life? I wouldn't i'd have to find a purpose, people would adapt. I'd go on holiday more, learn a new language and dialect ;). I'd find a way to be useful for society to say thanks for providing me with everything I need. I've no doubt someone like yourself would probably do the same as that is probably why your on a site like this trying to help the planet and make it a better world, but I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time - won't ever be the last.”
The problem is not that people would be bored. It’s that the benefits of producing goods and rendering services are going to be such that the costs, in terms of time and energy, are not justified. There are no benefits beyond satisfying a desire to produce a good or render a service. It becomes difficult if the desire isn’t even present. How many duties necessary for the continuation of society are there that people do not do because they desire to do them, but because it is beneficial to? Try removing those benefits and see what does and does not get done.
Great point, you would be correct in applying this to current psychologically trends. However, the benefit that would be derived from doing certain job within the VP RBE would be that of all basic necessities being met and that your actions would eventually benefit your children and other and thus in turn your children will benefit theirs and others children. With this re-education you point out to current generations that their actions are to benefit future generations and this links with human biology and the need to evolve if evolution can be reasoned with it would have to grasp that to evolve and survive as a species it would need to co-operate:
QUOTE:As put by Tainter: “Competition makes controlled collapse unfavorable, making unfavorable marginal returns favorable.”
So human biology would at some point reach a stage where it would have to reconcile a difficult point. Does it co-operate with itself and lend forth a new form of evolution or continue to the inevitable competition which as put in your doc**ent - a dissolution because of the marginal product.
If the marginal product is expanded beyond here and now and accepted that current competitive system eventually implode, the evolution has to take a new step to survive - it would seek alternative methods perhaps reduction of the ego to accept that the species carries within it the power to maintain a collective consciousness (Speculative I know) or on a more literal angle it would create a division as it would (assuming a normal being could rationalise this) reach a conclusion where in order to evolve it must compete, yet would know this action is self defeatist in the long run, thus eventually ending it's evolution. If evolution is biological in its entirety this concept would be proved right, however the fact we can debate this issue perhaps suggests that evolution is something more and that it recognises that long-term it's desire to improve must make short term sacrifice, thus once this argument is presented and absorbs - the question re-asked - What would keep people in society doing jobs where the immediate goods or service have no real benefit to them? - one would have to conclude they they as a being have recognised their eventual survive in generations to come would only come through co-operation otherwise inevitable extinction which is the last thing evolution would accept.
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Quote: “Also with the steady improvement of technology the skilled jobs would eventually either be replace with machinery, or superseded because of the change in global structure - things would progress so rapidly that it would be difficult to predict what happen.”
This again is an assumption that technology progresses exponentially, without limit, and that that progress is justified in terms of resource and time expenditure. People like to think like this because that is what they have seen for their entire lives, and they naturally like to extrapolate that belief beyond the inevitable constraints of a finite planet.
Again great point and fair point. To assume technology would progress is erroneous, however to presume we'd stay on this planet is short-sighted. Thus new expansions and horizons - yet this does help back up your Marginal Product argument - when is enough, enough? However this assumes all humans place the same values on all things which they don't and because of that there are people who might for example, happily explore the galaxy for relatively 0 product margin if it provided enough stimulus to keep existence interesting. This point not only ties in with your excellent article but is something i will come back to if you wish to discuss it further.
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Can we have this post with the comments posted in Delta Jones?,
I'm really enjoying it, struggling not to intervene,
I must tell you that at the pace you are going this debate is gonna end
in a week, Try conciseness, brevity and condensed language.
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Quote: “Its worth considering from all the bashing the site mentions on the Cornucopian Ideal, that in this sentence it shows immediate examples of the Monetary System failing - reading the oversight part suggests strongly that the need for profits and power and control meant that those in positions of oil drilling and other area new that in order to maintain their life style something like free energy would ruin them and so even though technology and the knowledge has been around to help out humanity for next 7 billion years. This strongly suggests that these individuals knew the system and had no real desire to change it because they felt they would gain nothing from it. Their need to gain or have or win or control is what continues this misery. How could sciences and engineers have an oversight for the last 200 hundred odd years? Explain to me the logic in that?! There is none it is most likely human influence that has kept this cycle and because of years of condition of scarcity and ideas of Goods/Service, which at times still has flaws so even that needs improving.”
If “free energy” were a feasible thing, what exactly is to stop someone, somewhere from utilizing it? Last I checked there are 180+ countries and approaching 7 billion people on this planet. The oil companies are not omniscient. They could not hope to stop someone, somewhere from developing such a technology, if it existed and were feasible.
Well I think that as there have been many know attempts through history of inventions and products being suppressed or the people involved disappearing because it would disrupt the status quo it is self evident that somethings out there do exist. To actually utilise it isn't the problem it's spreading it for all humanity to use, to develop it isn't the issues but not every person is mechanically minded and may not be able to build the technology which I would encourage. To see if what i am suggesting in this instance is true, why not pop on to youtube and type free energy there are so many many examples and some very compelling evidence. I'm not saying it's all true, but i'm not convince it's all BS!
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Hi Ethan,
Lol I will try sorry find it helpful to repost so people can follow track and arguments need to be strong, but polite ^_^.
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