Comments - E-money for the unbanked? - Urgent Evoke2024-03-28T17:23:46Zhttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=4871302%3ABlogPost%3A92849&xn_auth=noDr. Pete,
This is primarily…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-20:4871302:Comment:977812010-04-20T15:17:17.093ZJon Matonishttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/JonMatonis
Dr. Pete,<br />
<br />
This is primarily an issue of jurisdiction. Solutions will gravitate to those jurisdictions with the least barriers of resistance. Also, regarding your money laundering question, the largest facilitator of this anonymous, untraceable activity is the Federal Reserve, which prints the $100 bills used in suitcases today. I am sure you would not advocate eliminating paper cash because it is used for activities that you may disapprove of. Likewise, we should not advocate losing any…
Dr. Pete,<br />
<br />
This is primarily an issue of jurisdiction. Solutions will gravitate to those jurisdictions with the least barriers of resistance. Also, regarding your money laundering question, the largest facilitator of this anonymous, untraceable activity is the Federal Reserve, which prints the $100 bills used in suitcases today. I am sure you would not advocate eliminating paper cash because it is used for activities that you may disapprove of. Likewise, we should not advocate losing any anonymity simply because of a move to digital units. Resist digital money.....UNLESS IT'S ANONYMOUS!<br />
<br />
<a href="http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com</a> DrPete: "King: here's an exam…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-20:4871302:Comment:973772010-04-20T03:34:54.562ZKingofthePaupershttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/KingofthePaupers
DrPete: "King: here's an example... I babysat for 2 hours, and I would like a laptop (or maybe just a DVD). How do I acquire one from the timebank? I don't see how that would work."<br />
Jct: Let's say you join or start a Local Employment-Trading System, Timebank, Ithaca Hours network. You start with 4 Ithaca Hours = $40 and can just pay for your DVD with them. Then you did your babysitting and got some Ithaca Hours back. Or you open a LETS account, look in the Directory of Goods and Services, find…
DrPete: "King: here's an example... I babysat for 2 hours, and I would like a laptop (or maybe just a DVD). How do I acquire one from the timebank? I don't see how that would work."<br />
Jct: Let's say you join or start a Local Employment-Trading System, Timebank, Ithaca Hours network. You start with 4 Ithaca Hours = $40 and can just pay for your DVD with them. Then you did your babysitting and got some Ithaca Hours back. Or you open a LETS account, look in the Directory of Goods and Services, find what you need and then cut a check or, if you have an online account, transfer a credit for Hours owed. <a href="http://johnturmel.com/unilets.htm" target="_blank">http://johnturmel.com/unilets.htm</a> is my rudimentary but still functional first and oldest personal online LETS timebank account on the planet.<br />
DrPete: "Among the issues timebanks seem to have is the notion that some people's services are more valuable than other people's services. It may not be fair, but 2 hours of a doctors time are probably worth more/more in demand than 2 hours of babysitting, and it doesn't make much sense for a doctor to offer his time in exchange for the same amount of babysitting.<br />
Jct: Absolutely, that is the greatest flaw in the "everybody-gets-the-same" Timedollar system! They tested time-tokens at their King City convention a few years ago and I pulled out my accordion and busked as delegates went by and earned 4.1 Hours per hour proving that the minute you are using physical tokens, the market becomes free. So of course, they never adopted tokens so they could control everyone's earning rate and keep the fatal flaw in their system. Remember, it was taken over by saboteurs years ago which explains the constant rejection of free market time-tokens allowing more valuable time to win more in a fair game that has been the death of every other labor timebank run that way in past history! They're not the first "equal time" bank to fail but they will be the last as social databases now offer credit swapping that only need to be linked to time to offer the free market the Timedollar crowd have kept controlled all these years. Why do you think Timedollars keeps showing no growth? Sabotage by high expense and low efficiency (velocity)!<br />
DrPete: "If you want an idea numeraire, perhaps "energy" or "energy cost" would be more useful."<br />
Jct: Correct. Energy-based collateral for chips, except both energies, E=m*c^2 and E=P*t<br />
Power of Man times time is also energy. So timebanking is energy banking.<br />
"As to why we can't do this stuff with phones, it seems to be the result of our regulatory environment, which is not very friendly towards electronic currencies. We've got online banking services but no electronic cash here."<br />
Jct: But every third-world village in Kenya that doesn't have any banks bleeding them dry for using national interest-bearing cash they can't borrow does transfer minutes by phone! You tell me why nations that have banks still bleeding them dry can't transfer minutes by phone. In the U.S. because of regula…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-19:4871302:Comment:967842010-04-19T14:47:24.180ZDGCmagazine Editorhttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/DGCmagazineEditor
In the U.S. because of regulations and lack of demand for such a service, there really is NO conversion of cash into digital units by any kind of regular business. That includes units that travel over cell phone or the Net. These systems develop out of a need for the product and in the U.S. there is no 'recognized' need, everyone just uses their bank or plastic. Across Africa there is a huge need because no one has a plastic card and more people have cell phones than have bank accounts, thus…
In the U.S. because of regulations and lack of demand for such a service, there really is NO conversion of cash into digital units by any kind of regular business. That includes units that travel over cell phone or the Net. These systems develop out of a need for the product and in the U.S. there is no 'recognized' need, everyone just uses their bank or plastic. Across Africa there is a huge need because no one has a plastic card and more people have cell phones than have bank accounts, thus the development of a wide variety of businesses that act as cashiers for this service. You can walk up with cash, and either deposit it to your cell account or buy a voucher that will add it to your account. This type of cash to digital process is in huge demand there, but does not exist in the U.S. That is what Dr. Pete was referring to in the original post here, providing services that offer cash to digital for the unbanked crowd. I happen to agree with him, it's a great idea and a big market. There is an issue with the business handling and reporting cash transactions (Patriot Act) and then there is money transmitting side of the equation. If you accept the cash and add the digital unit are you a money transmitter requiring licensing in each State you have clients? Yes. These are rather large hurdles for any small business to get over. If there was a big market for this, I would think that we would see Prepaid PalPal cards hanging in 7-11.<br />
<br />
Mark King: here's an example... I…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-19:4871302:Comment:967592010-04-19T13:59:09.161ZDr Petehttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/DrPete
King: here's an example... I babysat for 2 hours, and I would like a laptop (or maybe just a DVD). How do I acquire one from the timebank? I don't see how that would work.<br />
<br />
Among the issues timebanks seem to have is the notion that some people's services are more valuable than other people's services. It may not be fair, but 2 hours of a doctors time are probably worth more/more in demand than 2 hours of babysitting, and it doesn't make much sense for a doctor to offer his time in exchange for…
King: here's an example... I babysat for 2 hours, and I would like a laptop (or maybe just a DVD). How do I acquire one from the timebank? I don't see how that would work.<br />
<br />
Among the issues timebanks seem to have is the notion that some people's services are more valuable than other people's services. It may not be fair, but 2 hours of a doctors time are probably worth more/more in demand than 2 hours of babysitting, and it doesn't make much sense for a doctor to offer his time in exchange for the same amount of babysitting. If you want an idea numeraire, perhaps "energy" or "energy cost" would be more useful.<br />
<br />
As to why we can't do this stuff with phones, it seems to be the result of our regulatory environment, which is not very friendly towards electronic currencies. We've got online banking services but no electronic cash here. Dr. Pete: "King: timebanks, a…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-18:4871302:Comment:960622010-04-18T15:29:32.824ZKingofthePaupershttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/KingofthePaupers
Dr. Pete: "King: timebanks, at this point... as community building exercises (in the US, at least) more than as a route to payment."<br />
Jct: Regardless, time is the ideal numeraire and will Millennium Declaration C6 for time-based currency will someday triumph over yellow or silver dirt or houses.<br />
"I worked 10 hours doing timebank services" into a cash equivalent, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it!"<br />
Jct: What do you want the cash for that your timedollars can't buy?<br />
"mPesa was what…
Dr. Pete: "King: timebanks, at this point... as community building exercises (in the US, at least) more than as a route to payment."<br />
Jct: Regardless, time is the ideal numeraire and will Millennium Declaration C6 for time-based currency will someday triumph over yellow or silver dirt or houses.<br />
"I worked 10 hours doing timebank services" into a cash equivalent, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it!"<br />
Jct: What do you want the cash for that your timedollars can't buy?<br />
"mPesa was what got me thinking about this in the first place, though I didn't know the name of the service at first. I definitely like this model. I have a phone with money deposited in it, but I can only use that money for "phone services (text messages, minute overages, etc)"... it would be terrific if I could use it to pay other bills!"<br />
Jct: And why can Africans with no bank accounts use phones but Americans with bank accounts can't? King: Though I like the idea…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-17:4871302:Comment:953632010-04-17T16:21:54.254ZDr Petehttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/DrPete
King: Though I like the idea of timebanks, at this point I see them as community building exercises (in the US, at least) more than as a route to payment. If someone has a scheme for converting "I worked 10 hours doing timebank services" into a cash equivalent, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it!<br />
<br />
Shakwei: mPesa was what got me thinking about this in the first place, though I didn't know the name of the service at first. I definitely like this model. I have a phone with money…
King: Though I like the idea of timebanks, at this point I see them as community building exercises (in the US, at least) more than as a route to payment. If someone has a scheme for converting "I worked 10 hours doing timebank services" into a cash equivalent, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it!<br />
<br />
Shakwei: mPesa was what got me thinking about this in the first place, though I didn't know the name of the service at first. I definitely like this model. I have a phone with money deposited in it, but I can only use that money for "phone services (text messages, minute overages, etc)"... it would be terrific if I could use it to pay other bills! +1 creativity. I have talked…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-17:4871302:Comment:950552010-04-17T02:09:26.547ZShakwei Mbindyohttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/ShakweiMbindyo
+1 creativity. I have talked about Kenya's mPesa (mobile money) in previous posts. mPesa allows anyone with a mobile phone from this mobile provider to store money in his phone and transact i.e pay utility bills, pay for shopping at stores, pay for airline tickets,give/loan money to family and friends. If someone sends you money to your mobile phone, you can even go to an ATM and withdraw the money even if you do not have any bank account - pretty nifty!
+1 creativity. I have talked about Kenya's mPesa (mobile money) in previous posts. mPesa allows anyone with a mobile phone from this mobile provider to store money in his phone and transact i.e pay utility bills, pay for shopping at stores, pay for airline tickets,give/loan money to family and friends. If someone sends you money to your mobile phone, you can even go to an ATM and withdraw the money even if you do not have any bank account - pretty nifty! Dr Pete: "someone (like Paypa…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-17:4871302:Comment:950482010-04-17T01:49:52.267ZKingofthePaupershttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/KingofthePaupers
Dr Pete: "someone (like Paypal) should create a service that does something like this:<br />
You bring money to a convenience store, like 7-11, and deposit it into your account. You then use that money online for purchases, or alternatively, use your cell phone to make purchases from live retailers electronically.<br />
Jct: And for people with no money, you bring an IOU for time to a LETS timebank and then use those timedollars online for purchases, or alternatively, use your cell phone to make purchases…
Dr Pete: "someone (like Paypal) should create a service that does something like this:<br />
You bring money to a convenience store, like 7-11, and deposit it into your account. You then use that money online for purchases, or alternatively, use your cell phone to make purchases from live retailers electronically.<br />
Jct: And for people with no money, you bring an IOU for time to a LETS timebank and then use those timedollars online for purchases, or alternatively, use your cell phone to make purchases from live retailers electronically. Your way, only people with cash can play. My way, everybody with time to work can play. Very interesting, thanks! Dig…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-15:4871302:Comment:938412010-04-15T22:13:32.530ZDr Petehttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/DrPete
Very interesting, thanks! Digging into this a little more, I find two issues that make me wonder, though...<br />
<br />
First off, the <a href="http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs28/28675/28675p.pdf" target="_blank">money laundering</a> issue. Is this essentially an inevitable feature (and therefore potential legal nightmare) for someone trying to create a service like this in the US?<br />
<br />
Second, what financial services do the "unbanked" actually need? At a minimum, I can identify check cashing and easy bill…
Very interesting, thanks! Digging into this a little more, I find two issues that make me wonder, though...<br />
<br />
First off, the <a href="http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs28/28675/28675p.pdf" target="_blank">money laundering</a> issue. Is this essentially an inevitable feature (and therefore potential legal nightmare) for someone trying to create a service like this in the US?<br />
<br />
Second, what financial services do the "unbanked" actually need? At a minimum, I can identify check cashing and easy bill payment. Remittances, loans and savings accounts would be the next tier. How, if at all, would a digital currency system deal with something like a bank check? What, if any, interface is there between electronic currency systems and banking institutions? Is digital cash actually a solution for those living check to check, or is it primarily of interest to another group? I would guess that your assum…tag:www.urgentevoke.com,2010-04-14:4871302:Comment:929752010-04-14T23:29:49.625ZDGCmagazine Editorhttp://www.urgentevoke.com/profile/DGCmagazineEditor
I would guess that your assumptions here on developing this cash product are right on target, since this is so new in the US.<br />
<a href="http://www.wmtransfer.com" target="_blank">Webmoney</a> is the global digital currency leader. What do I mean "digital currency" money that circulates on the Internet and does not go though a bank or conventional banking systems. PayPay is an online payment system. Digital currency transactions are not reversible, this is very important to understand, all…
I would guess that your assumptions here on developing this cash product are right on target, since this is so new in the US.<br />
<a href="http://www.wmtransfer.com" target="_blank">Webmoney</a> is the global digital currency leader. What do I mean "digital currency" money that circulates on the Internet and does not go though a bank or conventional banking systems. PayPay is an online payment system. Digital currency transactions are not reversible, this is very important to understand, all banking and credit card transactions are reversible and feature the always exciting "chargeback" for merchants :-) Digital currency = no chargebacks, thus lower fees. In Russia, they have cash-in terminals, small candy machine looking touch screen terminals that connect to a NON bank system via a radio signal like a cell phone, anyone can walk up and feed cash notes into the machine for instant credit to a Webmoney account or you can pay your bills via the terminal also. They don't much care for banks in Russia since '98. So digital currency systems are ever present there. They are also partner with Ukash, which is licensed out of the UK. Ukash is similar to Kwedit, you may walk into any location across UK, Europe and now Russia and with cash pay the cashier (no charge cards cash only) they accept it and give you a <a href="http://www.paymer.com/web/default.aspx?t=descr&lang=en-US" target="_blank">paymer</a> type receipt with a number on it. You go online and spend the cash by inputting the number. If you have a WM account, you can load your digital currency account instantly by inputting your <a href="http://www.ukash.com/de/en/home.aspx" target="_blank">Ukash</a> number at the WM web site. There is also a system called paycash and in Arab countries they have a similar system with <a href="http://cashu.com/" target="_blank">cashU</a> cards, pay cash, get online money. Virtually every country around the globe has walk in cash solutions for online money except the US. There are about 150,000 cash in terminals around Moscow, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting 6 of them, it is so simple to use. I was in Moscow last fall and did an entire issue on them including the cash terminals if you would like more info. <a href="http://www.dgcmagazine.com/dp/node/40" target="_blank">http://www.dgcmagazine.com/dp/node/40</a> around the globe, WM has partnered with all these companies so local people with cash can load their digital currency account.<br />
Webmoney also has <a href="http://www.wmnotes.com/" target="_blank">WMnotes.com</a> which are a paymer type product, a note that you can load money onto, split it up or spend it online, that is an amazing product which is OK across the EU in terms of regulations, but also new so not widely used. Very cool stuff.<br />
Mark